Curse

Mysterial · Sep 23, 2007, 02:32 AM // 02:32

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Originally Posted by twicky_kid

I cannot agree with that. At least drain enchant needed a point invest and had the condition of removing an enchantment.

Removing an enchantment isn't a conditional, it's a bonus effect. It's like having a "conditional" on a Warrior having a melee weapon. If it's not true you're even happier because the enemy team is stupid.

I think it probably wouldn't hurt to slightly nerf GoLE at zero attribute, but most of the spells that you're trying to hit by doing it are undercosted so it would be better to fix that first.

twicky_kid · Sep 23, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Removing an enchantment isn't a conditional, it's a bonus effect. It's like having a "conditional" on a Warrior having a melee weapon. If it's not true you're even happier because the enemy team is stupid.

And what happens when you run into a NR/Tranq team with very few enchantments? Its can be considered a bonus or a condition. Depends on what you are facing.

Riotgear · Sep 23, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Removing an enchantment isn't a conditional, it's a bonus effect. It's like having a "conditional" on a Warrior having a melee weapon. If it's not true you're even happier because the enemy team is stupid.

I think it probably wouldn't hurt to slightly nerf GoLE at zero attribute, but most of the spells that you're trying to hit by doing it are undercosted so it would be better to fix that first.

I find it hard to say Aegis was undercosted when monks would never run it at 15e prior to Glyph. I think part of the blame also lies in GoLE absorbing the risk of energy forfeiture when it gets interrupted, it's not only much cheaper to cast it, it's also much safer. Glyph is providing its benefit even if the spellcasts fail.

Vanquisher · Sep 23, 2007, 11:56 AM // 11:56

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Originally Posted by wuzzman

In propherices matches would litterally last till VoD across the board, regardless of rank. And those were the days when VoD was 30-45 minutes(don't exactly remember when it was changed). Only Evil, IQ, and WM would consistently roll teams in under 10 minutes but boy when they play each other using balance, talk about the LONGEST matchs in history, the only excitement in those matches was the fact that you knew both these teams were good lol.

I loved factions, monks had no energy management, dual extinguish, and various other staples. The meta was pretty diverse in gvg as well. But back in those days instead of 30 minutes at the flag stand it was 30 minutes turteling in your base, when the match should have ended 10 minutes ago.

You are SO incredibly wrong. Seriously, stop humping Guilds nuts and realise you're mistaken. Wow I'd wish you'd get a clue before making such dumb statements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

There's been a bunch of stuff out there that barely required any investment for real return. Return, Shock, Gale, Deep Freeze, Mending Touch, etc.

The only one I have an issue with is Return as it lessens the importance of pre-kiting. However, none of those skills break other skills balance and as such I don't understand why you brought them up.

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The cost is generally baked more into the opportunity cost of taking an Elementalist secondary, which tends to be pretty weak by itself. Of course, on classes with a free secondary, that opportunity cost has become pretty low.

Not really. With that argument there was very little point in taking Mesmer secondary for Energy Drain, or Necro secondary for Offering of Blood. The opportunity cost was always low, if existant. All it is is losing defensive stances, in which case you're sacrificing energy management, so it's more a case of self sustainability vs. longevity.

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GoLE has really changed the attitude towards 10e skills, which has had both positive and negative benefits. The hex meta was a product of it, the current wards+aegis smothering meta is as well, but hexes and Aegis were both undesirable to run on a primary because the cost was too high before.

Hexes were always incredibly effective. It was just before Necros had to run OoB to fuel their Hexing and couldn't fit all those 15e skills on their bar. It was then a case of either single or dual Migraine though, single with a Ranger spreading poison and often taking Blackout.

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In that sense, I don't think GoLE by itself is a bad thing, it's probably better than when everyone had a copy of Drain Enchantment, but it needs a tap right now, or several 10e spells need to be adjusted for its presence. While I normally don't like the latter (see: Deadly Paradox, Mantra of Recovery, Mantra of Persistence), I see GoLE as a fill-in for the lack of decent energy management options several classes have, especially post-Inspiration nerf. The problem is that GoLE is better than Inspiration was at its prime, so it needs to come down.

The thing is, those classes aren't meant to have such good energy management. It's not like Mesmers don't have good options. Necromancers have the ability to run an elite for it, and it's not like OoB is even that bad a skill. The thing is, all those miss hexes that are being stacked were balance by their energy cost before. You couldn't afford to go around spamming them forever. Now however, the change to GoLE has forced ArenaNet to balance them in other ways, while they could have just changed it and not had the problem.

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It depends whether or not you see packing that much enchant removal as a good thing or not, I never really liked the fact that it was being used primarily as energy management, yet was taking down enchantments as collateral. Kind of made real Elementalists impossible to field because you couldn't expect to keep an attunement up when it would just wind up being food.

People ran E-Prod then, and it was one of the main lines of defense. Blind was at 15e and you weren't really gonna be able to stop spikes without it because of the Blackout-push mentality top teams had.

If you're going to compare balance issues you should really look at the meta and options that were provided at the time, rather than having such poor arguments. It's the same when people argue about various interrupts, when the majority of them had their recharge changed substantially.

Riotgear · Sep 23, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

The only one I have an issue with is Return as it lessens the importance of pre-kiting. However, none of those skills break other skills balance and as such I don't understand why you brought them up.

Mending Touch doesn't break other skills' balance?

The point is that I don't see the lack of spec requirement as an inherent problem. Being able to throw more attribute points around SHOULD be offset by the fact that GoLE isn't providing any interesting secondary effects like Inspiration spells did, as well as its uselessness at casting 5e spells that are the staple of most Monk builds, the difference is that right now the amount of energy it does provide is kind of huge and it lets you cast things risk-free.

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Hexes were always incredibly effective. It was just before Necros had to run OoB to fuel their Hexing and couldn't fit all those 15e skills on their bar. It was then a case of either single or dual Migraine though, single with a Ranger spreading poison and often taking Blackout.

Necros (and Elementalists, because of DE) being forced into an energy management elite as the only real way to play their class was, in my opinion, overly constricting on both classes. Of course, eles using the buffed GoLE isn't exactly a problem, necros suffer more from the fact that costs are balanced around Soul Reaping.

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People ran E-Prod then, and it was one of the main lines of defense. Blind was at 15e and you weren't really gonna be able to stop spikes without it because of the Blackout-push mentality top teams had.

Probably should have clarified as "any elementalist besides E-Prod-HP."

Quote:

If you're going to compare balance issues you should really look at the meta and options that were provided at the time, rather than having such poor arguments. It's the same when people argue about various interrupts, when the majority of them had their recharge changed substantially.

I know what the options were then, and I still think GoLE's buff was ultimately a good thing because it opened up a lot of possibilities, and in the wake of the Inspiration nerf, kept numerous other possibilities viable. The problem at the moment is that it is simply too strong.

twicky_kid · Sep 23, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I know what the options were then, and I still think GoLE's buff was ultimately a good thing because it opened up a lot of possibilities, and in the wake of the Inspiration nerf, kept numerous other possibilities viable. The problem at the moment is that it is simply too strong.

The stupid thing about it is the nerf to inspiration while buffing Gole to be better than any other energy skill on the game (elite or non elite). It did the quite opposite of opening up possibilities. During Inspiration's hay day you had a point investment and multiple other inspire skills that would be used.

Now we have x/ele being used ONLY for Gole with no investment. Then hexes and other skills got energy cost nerfs because Gole made them too inexpensive. Instead of fixing GoLe they balanced the game around it. Now when they do nerf GoLe for the final time all the other skills they balanced around till probably stay nerfed.

wuzzman · Sep 23, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

You are SO incredibly wrong. Seriously, stop humping Guilds nuts and realise you're mistaken. Wow I'd wish you'd get a clue before making such dumb statements.

The only one I have an issue with is Return as it lessens the importance of pre-kiting. However, none of those skills break other skills balance and as such I don't understand why you brought them up.

Not really. With that argument there was very little point in taking Mesmer secondary for Energy Drain, or Necro secondary for Offering of Blood. The opportunity cost was always low, if existant. All it is is losing defensive stances, in which case you're sacrificing energy management, so it's more a case of self sustainability vs. longevity.

Hexes were always incredibly effective. It was just before Necros had to run OoB to fuel their Hexing and couldn't fit all those 15e skills on their bar. It was then a case of either single or dual Migraine though, single with a Ranger spreading poison and often taking Blackout.

The thing is, those classes aren't meant to have such good energy management. It's not like Mesmers don't have good options. Necromancers have the ability to run an elite for it, and it's not like OoB is even that bad a skill. The thing is, all those miss hexes that are being stacked were balance by their energy cost before. You couldn't afford to go around spamming them forever. Now however, the change to GoLE has forced ArenaNet to balance them in other ways, while they could have just changed it and not had the problem.

People ran E-Prod then, and it was one of the main lines of defense. Blind was at 15e and you weren't really gonna be able to stop spikes without it because of the Blackout-push mentality top teams had.

If you're going to compare balance issues you should really look at the meta and options that were provided at the time, rather than having such poor arguments. It's the same when people argue about various interrupts, when the majority of them had their recharge changed substantially.

were you around in 2005? What I clearly remember were watching r100 stalemate r1000's till VoD, and then the r100 brings out a can of hot ownage.

BlackSephir · Sep 24, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Back to skills
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Golden_Skull_Strike
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Temple_Strike

So... is 5e and 5s more recharge enough to take GSS instead of TS?

thor thunder · Sep 24, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Back to skills
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Golden_Skull_Strike
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Temple_Strike

So... is 5e and 5s more recharge enough to take GSS instead of TS?

IMO No i dont think so, GSS is good IF ur under enchantments.. with 5ebergy mabey depends, with 5E i think it would be easyer to spam but defenitly not as spike effeciant as TS.
With TS you use alot of energy but it allows for instant shut down its awsome against a monk the inter blind and dazed is good against tanks and most casters!..? in a organized spike in GvG for examle useing TS followed by major group spike = shutdown/kill of the caster/monk they would be blind,dazed,inter,and posible bleeding if your running a spider spike.. thats alot of conditions with blind/bleed as a cover it also makes it hard for monk or other to cleans target of there daze.. with GSS you HAVET TO run a cover condition or you will find your self spaming it as the monk cleans it off...

Vanquisher · Sep 24, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

were you around in 2005? What I clearly remember were watching r100 stalemate r1000's till VoD, and then the r100 brings out a can of hot ownage.

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Join Date: Mar 2005

Pretty sure I was in one of the top 3 Guilds in the GvG climate up until everyone started running Obs Flame Spike (Uni being first, Nu and Te competing for 2/3) and then the announcement of GWWC.

But I'm pretty sure Obs Mode wasn't even around for a lot of that time. Regardless, teams turtling didn't really happen all that often, EvIL only came into existance when the GWWC was announced and some internal issues made them split from WM, and Te were by far the strongest American Guild at the time, up until iQ started Gale-locking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Mending Touch doesn't break other skills' balance?

No. While it may have forced people to run less active split defense than blind (ie. SoR), it didn't change the balance mechanics of other skills in the ways that Glyph Lesser, Mantra of Recovery, Oath Shot, etc. do.

Quote:

I know what the options were then, and I still think GoLE's buff was ultimately a good thing because it opened up a lot of possibilities, and in the wake of the Inspiration nerf, kept numerous other possibilities viable. The problem at the moment is that it is simply too strong.

It opened up a lot of possibilities that were too strong. The ability to cancel spam 15 energy Hexes, and have several thrown on your bar, and not really have a problem with energy, required you to run an E-Management elite. The reason people ran OoB before was that the Necros were more interested in spreading the degen, and when you have really strong hexes that do that which are balanced by cost, it's fine. The sacrifice of your elite is a worthwhile one. The fact you can now still throw them around without having to sacrifice your elite however, and you can in fact take much more powerful skills because you're not restrained by the cost of them anymore, is one of the many factors that has made this game steadily decline into one of defense rather than offensive options.

LockerLoad · Dec 05, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Great work on the Guardian buff! Now there's absolutely no reason to play melee in R/A or T/A. How about buffing Warriors cunning?

WTF are you people thinking? It seems you work hard at alienating your customers.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 05, 2007, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Old topic + Unrelated post? You win the prize!